Hi Guys

can i see the output shaft if i drop the sump ,i need to see those bloody rivets,see sounds like an old tractor on a cold morning and has picked up a bad vib in the power house,i recon i have dropped a rivet or two,what do you recon??

Tony

If believe that if you remove the crankshaft cover, You will be able to see the output shaft and the rivets. This is easier than removing the sump.

Bert

you might be over thinking the problem hot seat .....

test your plugs and leads first .....



hope this helps

Hmmm, 1986 model. Wasn't that the first year they went to the 12 rivet shaft?

Yes you are right (unless it's a very early 1986), and these shafts don't fail.

Motobins tell me that they changed it in that year but not sure which one i have

"Sounds like a tractor and has bad vibes" sounds just like mine was before balancing the htrottle bodies a few weeks back.

A question please chaps, if I remove that crankcase cover do I lose any oil? Just want to find out where to park it, in front of the Mother in laws steps.
Cheers Rt.

I can confirm that if you remove the crank cover you can see the rivets. Another way to get a HINT on the condition of the rivets is to load up the clutch a bit, by letting the clutch out while keeping your foot on the rear brake, not to the point of stalling the motor, but to the point of creating a fair amount of drag on the clutch. It the noise goes away it does suggest that that output shaft is not good. Are you sure the 12 rivet shaft was used from '86 on? I have dismantled 2 '88/89 model motors and both had the 6 rivet shaft. I thought the 12 rivet shaft was first used on the 16v motor and supplied as a replacement for the '86 on motor, but not the '85 as one of the bearings on the shaft is different.
Anyway Hot Seat, if you do find your shaft is bad, I have a good one here if required, it is a 6 rivet one but it has no wear.

You will lose a LITTLE bit of oil, but very little, just a few drops really. Just put a sack or piece of cardboard under it.

hot_seat wrote:Motobins tell me that they changed it in that year but not sure which one i have

I got 6 rivets on mine which is a 3/86 and then in the middle of the production year (starts month 09).
Here you can check your VIN number.

It`s quite easy to check them, at least to get some peace in mind if they still are OK.
Do as Crazy Frog says losen the crankshaft cover, swing it out in the rear.
Put the bike in gear and move the back wheel forth and back, while observing the rivets.

Inge K.

robinm wrote:I thought the 12 rivet shaft was first used on the 16v motor and supplied as a replacement for the '86 on motor, but not the '85 as one of the bearings on the shaft is different.

I`ve also been reading that in other forums.

Inge K.

I can add that I had a 1988 RT and it was the original engine, it had a 6 rivet output shaft which had loose rivets. I then purchased an engine from a 1989 K100LT in the belief that it would have a 12 rivet output shaft, but on closer inspection it was found to have a 6 rivet assembly also, though those rivets were all tight.

I believe a lot of the ex cop bikes being RT's copped a hiding, which was a contributor to the loose rivets, so it is logical that an LT possibly wouldn't be subjected to the same, being a privately owned machine. As Bert will confirm (check his resto pages) there are a couple of issues with the shafts, 1 being that of wear in the hole that the backlash eliminator spring fits into and wear on the end of that spring as well. This causes the spring tension to be lost between the 2 gear segments which then causes a rattle on back-off, particularly when the engine is cold. If you discover the rivets to be loose, try to find a 12 rivet assy from a late 16 valve RS. If you do find one, I advise you to check the backlash spring as it's worth getting perfect for a silent engine. Hope this helps.

I have 2 1990 engines 6 mth and 7mth and both have 12 rivet shafts. The one I am using in the K100 I know is original and I am fairly sure the other is as well.

Both were from LTs and both were ex police. It may have been special order but they were made after the 16v came out in the K1 and RS.

When the 12 rivet came on the RS16V, it also became std. on the rest of the K100 line about the same time, I`ve been reading on other forums.

Inge K.

All is sound advise guys ,Thanks , The rattle is almost definately the output shaft,as it is worse when the engine is cold realy bad on startup in winter and when i power off it goes away undill i back throttle it rattles like a bag of bones ,will have a look

Well i think she has been listening to me talking about her output shart because today she let me know IT'S TIME,literaly over night the clutch has very little pickup in it ,so tomorro will be her last trip for some time,she is going to be on her back with her belly open.

Now ??? i am going to rebuild the clutch,output shaftand the timing chain,i have just recently done the oil/water pump

Is there in your opinion a must to be done when she is open ??

your comments would be valuable at this sad time

Tony

na ...i think you got it all for the engine side anyhow .......whilst its apart ..check the g/box input shaft .....for wear in the splines there ...



also the oil seals for the clutch pushrod ,output shaft etc .....good luck ...such a sad event .....but i hope you have the fervour to carry on ...and throw a leg over that beast, in the not too distant future ...

You will be disturbing the rear main seal so put a new one in as they are very likely to leak when disturbed.

When you pull it apart, make sure you tie the clutch release arm up with a cable tie/piece of wire or something before you remove the clutch cable. If you remove the clutch cable without doing that the arm will go back too far and rip the wee rubber boot, which is about $50.00 worth of boot ex UK.

Good advice guys ,will keep a keen eye on those things,also i need to watch for balance marks and they go back the same,or she will be a shaky mama,the timing of the job is not all bad as we are going into spring so i will get the good riding weather when she is back on her feet

i would like to elevat her a little to ease the back,other than buying an expensive bike lifter upper any ideas,at the moment i think i will put the car jack under her and chock up the centre stand ,may give me another 100mm

Chery oh

Tony

Another way is to use a trestle across the back frame just in front of where your tail-lamp fits, this gives a stable support once the centre stand has been removed.
cheers

Just got home and did a small test with the engine off in first gear i have 100mm free movement in my drive train ,so there must be a heap of wear in there i hope its only in the output buffers !!!

DO

80 - 100mm is not uncommon considering the freeplay in a constant mesh gearbox. I wouldn't read anything into that.

Not saying there is nothing wrong but I don't think that is your problem.

Re lifting the bike; I use a 'cruiser stand'.It fits great under the bike as the oil pan cover is flat.

i dropped the crank case cover off today and i have a 6 rivet and they are very loose ,so i intend to ream out the holes true,machine new rivets and possably convery to a 12,has anyone converted a 6 to 12 before ???

Waste of time and money. Get a 12-rivet shaft from the breakers.

How many K's on your bike Hot_seat?

ReneZ wrote:Re lifting the bike; I use a 'cruiser stand'.It fits great under the bike as the oil pan cover is flat.

I also always have lifted the bike at the oil pan cover,,,came over this thread some days ago,
which shows that this metod also can have a negative side.

Inge K.

This thread does give a bit more information on the 12 rivet upgrade (tho not too much more...)



http://k100rt.aforumfree.com/t863-that-pesky-output-shaft?highlight=12+rivet+output

So i am at the point of removing the g box,i intend to fabricate a steel bracket that sits on two saw horses under the tail of the frame and bolts to the two 6mm holes on the tail,i have noticed that the engine is hung on the frame by 4 cap screws and the other 2 hold the g box and centre stand so if i lift the back of the frame off the centre stand and bolt on my fancy bracket and release the 2 g box screws the frame would support the motor in place (thats the plan anyway) watch this space

Hi pjjms

As i have a K,the speedo crapped long long ago so doing a calculation on taveling to and from work each day (less sickies) all up i recon she has done between 450 & 500K and such a good girl she has been

wow ...thats some serious ks hotseat ......it just reminded me that my old toyota has just turned 450,000 k this last friday

Well I guess she could be forgiven for letting herself go a little with that kind of use...

I digress

Just been had another look

and there are 5 bolts

2 up front

1 above the alternator connected to the bell housing

2 on the g box

i recon the bolt above the alt will hold and as far as i recon but will bung some wood under the bell,to get the output shaft out and replace the clutch i don't have to remove the bell

AM I CORRECT !!! please please please !!

Yeh

When i about to buy her i was talking to a Beema Mechanic and he recons it's not unusual to get 500k from a good bike ,maybe she wasn't build on a Monday or Friday

Yeh

i was yalking to the BMW mechanic when i was about to buy her and he told me it's not uncommon to get 500k or am i just lucky ,lucky it wasn't built on a Friday or Monday

Dont let the swingarm drop down after taking the shock of as it will cut the rubber boot that joins to the gearbox.

Put the stand under the frame and remove the centre stand from the bottom of the gearbox. remove the two bolts on the gearbox no need to prop with anything remove the starter (2x5mm allen head screws) and pull it out rearwards (it can be stubborn) there is no need to remove the alternator then remove all cables and wires then the six 6mm allen screws and move the box back of the engine, DONT let it drop down the clutch pushrod may still be in the flywheel centre and it could bend (two people is handy if you have never done it before) move the pushrod back into the box and it should come out.

hot_seat wrote:1 above the alternator connected to the bell housing

Watch out so you don`t loose the shim (if mounted) between the frame and gearbox.

Inge K.

Tony, I just put 12 rivet output shaft in my 86 k100rt, I tryed to have all the new parts on hand,3 o rings, one for the oil/water pump, one for the coolant flow in the case, one for the oil flow in the case, all the new stuff for the clutch pack, and a new main seal. I found the crankcase gasket very brittle, so I had to wait for one of them, I also replaced the big bearing on the output shaft, you may have to switch your old one onto the new to fit your case. all and all the job wasn't to bad, one of the biggest hassles was getting all the torx bolts out of the intermediate housing, I had to drill two heads off and get them with vise grips, so you may want to order a few of those as well.

I was lucky to find a used 12 rivet shaft. I put up an add on the internet bmw riders site, and a fellow in Cal. had one in new condition.

feel free to ask I you think I can help.

thanks yankeone

Did you have to remove the bell to get the output shaft out,if so you would loose your back engine support

Tony

Yes you will lose support, I put a jack stand under the cam cover and the crank cover, you will need to take the weight with a floor jack under the oil pan till you get the bell housing off , because the crank cover need to be lose to get the bell off, then you can tighten the bolts back up and put the jack stand under.
When I put it all back I put three mount bolts back at once so there was no twist tension on the frame.

Take a look at the output shaft repair in this link.

http://www.bmwmcnj.com/Technical/bmd%20k100%20how%20to%20tips%20for%20free..pdf

Inge K. wrote:
I also always have lifted the bike at the oil pan cover,,,came over this thread some days ago,
which shows that this metod also can have a negative side.

Inge K.

Hi Inge, no doubt you are aware that the official tool of BMW attaches to the 4 boltholes in the sump cover, where the bike/engine is lifted with. As the referred packing is a sealant I can only conclude it was not properly applied (too think) at the time.

Hi Rene!
Yes I`m aware of the BMW adapter, way back since got my first K (got factory manual delivered with).
That also is the reason I always have used this metod....safe, approved by BMW.
But looking back, history shows that even the engineers at BMW have stumpled now and then.

Then I was getting a bit worried when reading the thread in the link, and the fact that I also got a leak in
the same spot, so far a very minor one which don`t seem to have changed much over the years.



Beside that I would say that I share your opinion in the clutch boot thread in an other forum.
Some folks is very stubborn when they have maked up their mind.

Inge K.

"Beside that I would say that I share your opinion in the clutch boot thread in an other forum.
Some folks is very stubborn when they have maked up their mind"



Yep, I'm looking at that as well. Sometimes there's no helping some people!

Guys, appreciate the comments. I feel that Ernie has a valid point as far as material is concerned, but don't agree with his stance and my experience is different. I have seen a cut-out drawing of the box before that made sense of it, but can't find it. As I said, agree to disagree, but I think we still got a bit wiser again so its all good as far as I'm concerned. We all look at our bikes in our own way.

ReneZ wrote:I have seen a cut-out drawing of the box before that made sense of it, but can't find it.

Could be this one, that I posted in a third forum a couple of weeks back.

[img][/img]

Inge K.

Inge, indeed, that's the one. Where was it posted?

K-bikes.com

Did have the idea to post it rather early inthe thread, but didn`t have the time at that moment.
Next time entering I did see which direction it turned, and Ernie allready had his mind made up.......
so I ended with to just leave it, no use.

Inge K.

No worries Mate, 'I fight my own battles where and when I choose'.......
(Note John Wayne voice ;-))