From your first post:


"On my first ride the starter failed twice. But not as it did on the old engine. Now the bike would actually start if I hit the starter a second time.
 
My conclusion was: “Ok it must be my starter since it was the starter from the old engine”. I got a used starter. Disassembled it and cleaned it and installed it. But I still get starter problems."


Two starters on this engine and you say the sprag still slips.  I respectfully have to say that it doesn't sound like the starter to me.

V

Point-Seven-five wrote:Two starters on this engine and you say the sprag still slips.  I respectfully have to say that it doesn't sound like the starter to me.

Remember none of them have been refurbished and the second starter was just taken off a old bike, that had been sitting for years.

My plan was to refurbish one of them I just haven’t gotten to that part yet, since the bike now actually starts at second try (or if I back it in 1. gear and drop the clutch).

And I don’t know if it’s the starter but since my “new” engine didn’t have the problem on the K1 (and never did) it seems like a possibility so I’ll have to try with a refurbish starter. A hell of a lot easier then stripping the whole bike.

But before I try I’m willing to make a oil change and see what happens. Seems like a cheap and easy way to rule out oil (or be lucky that it actually makes an difference).

M

daveyson wrote:It's years since I read about nano additives, so take this with a grain of salt.

I agree with the mechanic in your first post that you're using the wrong oil (Putoline sport 4R semi synthetic 4-stroke 10w 40) not so much because it's for wet clutch applications, but because of the nano additives (still a guess,  but I'd put my bottom dollar on it)

The hype, or reality, is that it bonds to smooth metal surfaces for many oil changes after it's added. You could contact the oil manufacturer and thank them for their products. Ask if it has nano additives and explain your problem. Tell them it's only been used for 500 km (luckily) since you owned it. Ask for options to remove it if an oil change doesn't fix it.

My last car got over 600,000 km with the original engine using good old Castrol gtx. Typically on fathers day it's $10 for 5lt. In OZ, it's been that price for decades.

I'll bet my bottom dollar (if I've still got it) that BMW wouldn't recommend using nano additives in a brick.

$10 for 5l of decent Oil . Here we pay between $80 to 100 (American).

I’ll take your advice if things doesn’t get better after oil change and starter refurbishing. 

Right now I’m just waiting for my oil to arrive (fat chance that is going to happen on a Sunday).

Danish biker wrote:$10 for 5l of decent Oil . Here we pay between $80 to 100 (American).

I pay between U$50 and U$65 for 5 litres and I thought that was bad.

Dai wrote:

Danish biker wrote:$10 for 5l of decent Oil . Here we pay between $80 to 100 (American).

I pay between U$50 and U$65 for 5 litres and I thought that was bad.

EVERYTHING In Denmark is very expensive and our taxes are high. That is why I changed my engine myself (no way I could afford a mechanic).

So the temp- and gas gage and loome I found was a great find for the low price

Danish biker wrote:EVERYTHING In Denmark is very expensive and our taxes are high.

That's just the cost of living in the second-happiest country in the world.

J

Laitch wrote:

Danish biker wrote:EVERYTHING In Denmark is very expensive and our taxes are high.

That's just the cost of living in the second-happiest country in the world.

Yes good things have a price.

Not to get too political but through the EU we pay a lot of money to for instance Italy, because they did not take care during the start of corona. We did and it has cost the Danish country a lot of money to “be safe, and act accordingly”, so things are relatively safe, regarding the corona.

Now a lot of Danes are arguing why we support Italy since they send their people on pension earlier then we do.

So of course oil has to be expensive when we support a country that sends people on pension earlier then our own citizens, and despite of this we still send them money. Some people in Denmark think Italy should start raising their pension age, before getting our money.

Oh well proud to be a Dane 

Sounds like a Yorkshire Dane to me

Not a Great Dane then?

Gentlemen 

Not very many believed the suggestion from the Danish MC mechanic, that it was my oil causing the trouble.

Some said take out the Sprang Clutch etc. others said flush the engine with miracle cleaner.

Myself suggested a red C4 Schubert helmet might do the job.

Any way I didn’t take out the Sprang clutch. I didn’t use a cleaner. Neither did I buy a red Schubert.

All I did was, drain my oil. Change my oil filter. Put the oil suggested by the Danish MC mechanic on my bike.

And here is the result:

Number of BMW start after oil change

1 ok 18. AUG
2 ok 18. AUG
3 ok 18. AUG
4 ok 19. AUG
5 ok 19. AUG
6 ok 19. AUG
7 ok 20. AUG
8 ok 20. AUG
9 ok 20. AUG
10 ok 21. AUG
11 ok 21. AUG
12 ok 22. AUG
13 ok 22. AUG
14 ok 22. AUG
15 ok 22. AUG
16  ok 22. AUG
17  ok 22. AUG
18 ok 22. AUG
19 ok 23. AUG
20 ok 23. AUG
21 ok 23. AUG
22 ok 23. AUG
23 ok 23. AUG
24 ok 23. AUG
25 ok 23. AUG
26 ok 23. AUG
27 ok 23. AUG
28 ok 23. AUG
29 ok 24. AUG
30 ok 24. AUG
31 ok 24. AUG
32 ok 24. AUG
33 ok 24. AUG
34 ok 24. AUG
35 ok 24. AUG
36 ok 24. AUG
37 ok 25. AUG
38 ok 25. AUG
39 ok 25. AUG
40 ok 25. AUG
41 ok 25. AUG
42 ok 25. AUG
43 ok 25. AUG
44 ok 25. AUG
45 ok 25. AUG
46 ok 25. AUG
47 ok 25. AUG
48 ok 27. AUG
49 ok 27. AUG
50 ok 27. AUG
51 ok 27. AUG
52 ok 28. AUG
53 ok 28. AUG
54 ok 28. AUG
55 ok 28. AUG
56 ok 28. AUG
57 ok 28. AUG


I’ve hit the starter 57 times over 10 days. As you can see, every time is “ok”. Not once have the starter or/and sprang clutch failed to start the engine. Not even a micro second of spinning with out engaging.


Don’t know if you feel wiser but I do.

I believe in miracles!

We all love a happy(cheap easy fix) ENDING,

hmmm   another friction modified oil causing issues 

good that you found the issue 

good riding to you

Danish biker wrote:
... Not even a micro second of spinning with out engaging.

So possibly not even a nano second.

I'm curious what the brand of 10-60 oil was. It sounds like a synthetic with that much of a spread. I've been using Mob 1 15-50, which is a semi synthetic car oil and for the most part works fairly well. I do have very intermittent sprag issues.

BMW Kseries designed late 70is built early 80is.To be run on mineral oil,with regular oil/filter changes,So why change to products not tested at the time.Keep it simple and avoid problems.enough said

moriarti wrote:BMW Kseries designed late 70is built early 80is.To be run on mineral oil,with regular oil/filter changes,So why change to products not tested at the time.Keep it simple and avoid problems.enough said

BMW never built a bike to run on a particular oil. They built a bike to sell it and specified the best oil that was available at that time. Oil has improved over the years.
With your reasoning, do you try and buy tyres that were made in the 1970s? I assure you that they are not as good as modern tyres, nor is a 1970s helmet as good as a modern one.

cycleman wrote:I'm curious what the brand of 10-60 oil was. It sounds like a synthetic with that much of a spread. I've been using Mob 1 15-50, which is a semi synthetic car oil and for the most part works fairly well. I do have very intermittent sprag issues.

Mobil One 15W50 is spec'd as a full synthetic oil (see Mobil's site) & works just fine with dry clutch bikes, is not considered an 'energy conserving' oil (like 10W30, 10W40, etc) so it has a distinct ZDDP (zinc phosphorous) package in it which is good for air & oil-cooled engines with separate gearboxes/dry clutches. I use it in my US-based K bikes, Airhead & Oilheads. No sprag issues where used, thus far (8+ years) using it. It's also inexpensive relative to motorbike-specific oils, most of which have to meet JASO/MA-2 spec for wet clutches which our K's don't require.

Now, shoot me if this turns into a oil-slinging contest. Drown me if it turns into anything about tyres.

Hi BobT,You are correct about tyres/helmets,My point is simply this.We dont know if the modern oils formula is better for the Ks or not, so stay with what works.

My apologies in advance for posting this:

The primary purpose of oil is to provide a film between two metal surfaces that are moving relative to each other.  Everything else is just frosting on the cake.

To accomplish that, the oil needs to have the ability to maintain it's film at high pressures.  It needs to handle these high pressures over a wide range of temperatures.  To achieve film strength at high pressure the molecules need to be long, flexible, tangled together and have strong bonds between the atoms in the molecules.  Additives are added to enhance the properties of the molecules, especially to prevent breakdown of bonds at high temperatures as well as preventing oxygen bonding to the carbon atoms, breaking the chains. 

Older, non-synthetics needed higher viscosities to get the molecular properties to get good film performance at high temperatures.  Modern oils, are designed to have good performance over wider temperature ranges.

Synthetic oils are engineered for high pressure film strength and temperature stability.  If you look at test data for film strength at both low and high temperature you will see that modern synthetics outperform the best non-synthetics by a wide margin.  Even low viscosity synthetics outperform higher viscosity non-synthetics, allowing for the modern "energy saving" 5w20 motor oils sold today.

The hardest oil task in a modern engine is lubricating the contact area of the cam lobe on the valve.  This is where the pressure rating of the film is important. 

Sorry, but I couldn't help myself.

 well presented and to the point no Sorry needed,data/ knowledge helps us all improve,

Two Wheels Better wrote:Now, shoot me if this turns into a oil-slinging contest. Drown me if it turns into anything about tyres.

No need for histrionics. Flogging will be sufficient in either case. In the spirit of contagion prevention, self-flagellation will be acceptable. Post the Instagram link.

With self flagellation do we use natural mineral oils or fully synthetic 

Laitch wrote:

Two Wheels Better wrote:Now, shoot me if this turns into a oil-slinging contest. Drown me if it turns into anything about tyres.

No need for histrionics. Flogging will be sufficient in either case. In the spirit of contagion prevention, self-flagellation will be acceptable. Post the Instagram link.

My ex-wife was a self-described 'recovering C*th*l*c' and described in detail the whole gettin' close to g*d, self flagellation thing. I suffer no such scars across my back.

moriarti wrote:With self flagellation do we use natural mineral oils or fully synthetic 

Paste emollient, with a high zinc content.

So anybody have any idea what 10-60 oil the originating poster used to solve his sprag clutch issue. I'm just curious, as if it worked I'd try it in my K bike, if it's available here,  although the 60 weight when hot is a bit thick in my mind.

It likely was one of those higher end European oils that they have at some motorcycle dealers, KTM's are one that comes to mind.

cycleman wrote:So anybody have any idea what 10-60 oil the originating poster used to solve his sprag clutch issue. I'm just curious, as if it worked I'd try it in my K bike, if it's available here,  although the 60 weight when hot is a bit thick in my mind.

It likely was one of those higher end European oils that they have at some motorcycle dealers, KTM's are one that comes to mind.

Never seen a 10-60 anywhere here in Europe. Might be something that is designed for a tractor or a boat, I don't know.

Nor have I. 10-50 is the highest I've seen.

Most major brands have 10/60 oil seems to be used in older engines to reduce oil consumption.Lots of comments regarding use in BMW M motors.BMW Fanatics web site.

Also available for high performance motorcycles

I see Motul 4T 7100 is a 10-60 motorcycle oil and is available in Europe as well as on this side of the pond. It is a SG rated oil and also a Jaso MA spec so it would be good with either a dry clutch or a wet clutch. Likely a bit of overkill for an older K100 but it's only money.

My son's E92 uses full synthetic 10W60...BMW. Its special order. They do free oil check and free top up too. Guess it can be used in a brick, especially K1100.

Also Motorex has a 10-60. My guess is that it was either Motul or Motorex 10-60, was what the originator ended up putting in his K100.

Moto Guzzi specifies 10W-60 oil for the late model V7.

I was having sprag clutch problems and when I tore down the engine (intermediate case) I found the gear attached to the shaft just to the right of the sprag clutch assembly was lose and was actually what I heard spinning. I tightened it (and cleaned the sprag clutch) and the starter has been working fine for going on three years.

A first. A civilised oil thread.....   

Olaf,you need to cut down on the  local nectar or your puddings.

Down to one glass a day.....quite modest.