In 5th?

yes

Yep
Sounds like you were approaching the sound barrier there.

 

Celebrating 1000 km on the road with my K today! 

It's been a nice time, but soon time to park it. NOT looking forward to that. But I am looking forward to another winter of hanky-panky with the engine 

Winter is coming... (Thanks Stark... jeeez)

Time for taking the bike apart again for overhaul of the engine. 
Drained the oil yesterday. Little or no fragments or metal shards in the oil, like I suspected there may be after the output shaft started acting up. 
Also opened the right side cover to peek inside and possibly inspect the output shaft, but no cigar. I thought it would be visible from the right side after the cover was removed...

It is visible you need the crankshaft in the right position and even then you cant see much.

Thank you, Rick. I guess it's time for teardown

Got off the frame with front wheel still on, and all cables tucked up.
Rear wheel off, swing arm off, gear box off.
Left/right/front engine cover off. 

I peeked inside to see the output shaft, and looking down past the rear part of the crank, I could see that none of the bolts on the output shaft looked loose. 
Still need to take the engine cases apart because the rubbers in between may have been buggered after 140.000 km of neglect. I'm not looking forward to getting the bell housing off. Last time I tried, some of the screws got stripped and stuck.

Getting the Torx head bolts out to get the bellhousing off is a lot easier if you put the bit into the hole and with an extension bar in the socket drive hit it hard with a 16oz hammer then undo then, the jar will make any corosion release that grip it forms on the threads.  There is absolutely no need to use those torx head bolts you can use the ordinary socket head cap screws (allen head bolts) when you replace it.

RicK G wrote:Getting the Torx head bolts out to get the bellhousing off is a lot easier if you put the bit into the hole and with an extension bar in the socket drive hit it hard with a 16oz hammer then undo then, the jar will make any corosion release that grip it forms on the threads.  There is absolutely no need to use those torx head bolts you can use the ordinary socket head cap screws (allen head bolts) when you replace it.

Yeah, I was thinking of replacing them with something else than torx. I do see the benefit of having the extra grip, but both bolt heads and bits tend to F up often. 
I'll try your technique tonight on the bolts

I did hit the bolts with a hammer, and had an impact driver lying around, and managed to convert it to fit into the torx sockets, but that just stripped the bolts around the clutch housing. 

I did get the ones on the upper part of the bell housing out by drilling out the heads, but 4 bolts around the clutch were removed by welding onto the bolts and then applying ample force with grips. 



I was stunned to find that the 6 bolts on the Absorber Gear Wheel were all fine with no play, and that the Idler looked fine with just a tiny amount of play (though I reckon this is how it should be).
The output shaft and absorbers were all fine, and the rubber bits looked like they were almost new. 

Can't really say what's causing the noises I experience anymore, and I will service the engine seals and maybe replace the alternator....

Bummed!

Yeah I suppose if I was sitting in the same place for 29 years I wouldn't want to move either.

Erman wrote:
I was stunned to find that the 6 bolts on the Absorber Gear Wheel were all fine with no play, and that the Idler looked fine with just a tiny amount of play (though I reckon this is how it should be).

It shouldn't be any play in the idler gear, it could be that the hole in the spring have becoming oblong.
Not unusual on the early models, which did have a to strong spring.

Look at the top of teeth on the idler and the absorber, they should not be in line
.....when you lightly twist the idler to take up the play.

great tip inge !

good to see you still around

Inge K. wrote:

Erman wrote:
I was stunned to find that the 6 bolts on the Absorber Gear Wheel were all fine with no play, and that the Idler looked fine with just a tiny amount of play (though I reckon this is how it should be).

It shouldn't be any play in the idler gear, it could be that the hole in the spring have becoming oblong.
Not unusual on the early models, which did have a to strong spring.

Look at the top of teeth on the idler and the absorber, they should not be in line
.....when you lightly twist the idler to take up the play.

Rick: Haha

Inge: Thanks! I'll check that out tonight.

And here is a picture of the hub that I forgot to post earlier:

Ah yes, finally found the source of our noise from the area around the alternator. 

I received some parts to complete the engine, and whilst examining the engine case, I noticed a notch corresponding to the skirts of the auxiliary shaft. Looking at this further revealed wear on the gears.

If possible, could any you guys look at this part/area on dismantled engines where you know there was no noise?

And also, what is the remedy here. The engine casing I can't do too much about, but can I reuse the gears?

Just look at these photos of horror:

There has been a shortage of oil there at some stage the Blue arrow shows gauling and the green shows a badly worn hole that needs work before using it again

Thank you, Rick.

What kind of work do you mean?

It would need to be sleeved back to the right size and that being part of the engine block it is a lot of work.
The worn hole would need to be milled out and a sleeve made to fit, probably 1.5 to 2 hours work.
It could be easier to just put a used engine into it.

What "good" news, hehehe :p

Yeah some of the problems of choosing to have an older bike but I still reckon the advantages outweigh the disadvantages but we have to be prepared to do the work ourselves.

Hellow, fellows! 

I've had some zen moments with my bikes, but none like this. Yesterday, I was cleaning the two centre pistons as well as their cylinders. It should be noted that there were some carbon residue on the top half inch of the cylinder walls. 
I had the work light shining onto the engine from the cylinder side and caught this monstrous thing looking at me:

Terminator....it just won't stop!!

Just cacthing up with your thread Erman, Great pics and very educational, Keep it up and thanks.

Will

88KE wrote:Terminator....it just won't stop!!

Just cacthing up with your thread Erman, Great pics and very educational, Keep it up and thanks.

Will

Why, thank you! 

The educational parts come from Inge and Rick mostly. Huge thanks to everyone who have contributed to teach me about the Ks.

Finally started putting together the K together for the '14-season. The wear on the sprag clutch is noticeable, but not critical at this time. 
At least, I now know what was causing the noise coming from what I thought was the alternator. I will try running the bike in this condition to see if the problem goes away after the rigorous cleaning. Otherwise, I guess I need to fit a new sleeve or replace the sprag clutch assembly altogether.

I used the original BMW Drei Bond to seal between engine casings, and on the bell housing, with blue Thread Lock on the bolts. All mating surfaces were cleaned mechanically, as well as with a silicone remover.
Before mounting, the water pump was inspected and function tested. No trace of mix between coolant and oil were detected, so I will not be replacing the ceramic seal on the shaft. I used grey Permatex to bond the water pump assembly to the engine casing. 

About an hours work yesterday, and the engine is almost ready for insertion to frame

Erman wrote: The wear on the sprag clutch is noticeable, but not critical at this time. 
At least, I now know what was causing the noise coming from what I thought was the alternator. I will try running the bike in this condition to see if the problem goes away after the rigorous cleaning. Otherwise, I guess I need to fit a new sleeve or replace the sprag clutch assembly altogether.

Hmm.....it's a pity this is a bit late, as most this and that is assembled by now.

I don't think your problem goes away with rigorous cleaning, as you got a seized bearing spinning around in the engine block...which also have been grinding itself forward...a gear have started to grind the engine block.

I would have tried to fixating a new bearing straight, centered, at correct depth (bearing level with surface) and glued it with Loctite 660.

Complete alternator driveshafts it's a lot of on ebay.
Get the bearing from a well known manufacturer.......SKF, FAG.

Inge K. wrote:

Erman wrote: The wear on the sprag clutch is noticeable, but not critical at this time. 
At least, I now know what was causing the noise coming from what I thought was the alternator. I will try running the bike in this condition to see if the problem goes away after the rigorous cleaning. Otherwise, I guess I need to fit a new sleeve or replace the sprag clutch assembly altogether.

Hmm.....it's a pity this is a bit late, as most this and that is assembled by now.

I don't think your problem goes away with rigorous cleaning, as you got a seized bearing spinning around in the engine block...which also have been grinding itself forward...a gear have started to grind the engine block.

I would have tried to fixating a new bearing straight, centered, at correct depth (bearing level with surface) and glued it with Loctite 660.

Complete alternator driveshafts it's a lot of on ebay.
Get the bearing from a well known manufacturer.......SKF, FAG.

Inge, you are an invaluable resource. It hadn't even dawned on me that there would be a roller bearing there.

The part I'm referring to is #1 on this fiche. For some reason, it has slid upwards on the shaft of #2. This caused the sprag clutch assembly to slide further into the casing and grind.
I'll see if I can't get it to an engine shop and replace the bearing/buffer with something else. The engine isn't 100% complete yet, so I can still get the bell housing off.

Thanks again! 

I did manage to get the seized bearing off the shaft yesterday. Can't say how, because the process is way above PEGI 18 rating. 

All right, I'll say it... I had to cut a stripe around the whole of the bearing on the middle, yank the upper half off, then pick each of the bearing pins out before the bottom half came off. 
There was pitting, probably caused by the initial friction before the bearing seized. 

I'll go ahead and order a new bearing based on what Inge wrote. And I'm guessing there should be plenty of lubrication at this point once things are refitted?

good luck !

Erman sounds to me like the bearing was turning on the shaft and and then seized onto the shaft where the bearing inner should be a press fit and any spinning should be left to the bearing rollers. If the new bearing is a lose fit on the shaft don't use the shaft as it will only happen again. Some shaft loctite may do the job or a new shaft would be needed. Some pics of the shaft would help determine what has happened.

RicK G wrote:Erman sounds to me like the bearing was turning on the shaft and and then seized onto the shaft where the bearing inner should be a press fit and any spinning should be left to the bearing rollers. If the new bearing is a lose fit on the shaft don't use the shaft as it will only happen again. Some shaft loctite may do the job or a new shaft would be needed. Some pics of the shaft would help determine what has happened.

The type of bearing you're describing, sounds like one where the rollers are on the outside. On the bearing I removed, the rollers were on the inside. 

Did one of the POs use wrong type of bearing? The new ones I ordered also have rollers on the inside, as I assumed this was right. 

But you got me thinking now, and that's not always a good thing   
On the engine casing, where the shaft mounts into, there is a small hole facing the crank. I've thought about it being there to allow small amounts of oil to splash and lubricate the bearing, but that didn't get me thinking that the bearing might have been the wrong type....

If the rollers run directly onto the shaft and the shaft is pitted then a new bearing will just destroy itself.
Or is there an inner then rollers and an outer shell.

Erman, in reply #227 it's a link to the correct bearing and its designation
(and a hint that you would need a new alternator drive shaft).

Inge K. wrote:Erman, in reply #227 it's a link to the correct bearing and its designation
(and a hint that you would need a new alternator drive shaft).

You need to spell it out loud for me, Inge   

I did order the one you linked to, and also another one with 22 mm depth. 

Rick: The seller actually asked if I wanted a bearing with an inner shell. Would that be better suitable?
I did inspect the shaft after having removed the bearing, and there was some metal residue - probably from the time the bearing seized - but this came off with a pointy-tool...

Hard to say but I would stick with the original design. What I would be doing is finding out why the bearing siezed if at all possible.

From when i removed it at initial dismantle in December, lack of greased lubrication seemed to have been a factor. I will smear it in with proper grease when putting it together.

That bearing is supposed to run in oil and be lubricated by the engine oil. Don't put grease on it just oil it before assembly or use some engine assembly paste which will mix with the oil. Grease wont mix with the oil and could actually prevent the oil getting into the bearing.
I haven't been able to get at any of my engines to have a look (because of the surgery I had recently) but there should be something there to catch the oil and direct some of it to the bearing, it may be just a slight dish in the casting or something like that. Make sure that if there is something like that it is clean and the oil feed is clear.  It may even be something that directs oil down the centre of the shaft.

I feel quite confident that BMW would have some means of getting a positive oil feed to the bearing.

RicK G wrote:That bearing is supposed to run in oil and be lubricated by the engine oil. Don't put grease on it just oil it before assembly or use some engine assembly paste which will mix with the oil. Grease wont mix with the oil and could actually prevent the oil getting into the bearing.
I haven't been able to get at any of my engines to have a look (because of the surgery I had recently) but there should be something there to catch the oil and direct some of it to the bearing, it may be just a slight dish in the casting or something like that. Make sure that if there is something like that it is clean and the oil feed is clear.  It may even be something that directs oil down the centre of the shaft.

I feel quite confident that BMW would have some means of getting a positive oil feed to the bearing.

Yes, there is a hole on the end of the "cave" into which the bearing sits (16 mm into the engine casing), facing at about 15 degree angle from horizontal down towards the crank. Can't really tell the amount of oil this oil receives.

I have some red moly grease that I was going to use, but I'll get hold of some of the paste per your description.

Have a good look at that hole and try to find where exactly it goes. I have a feeling from what you say it may be pressure fed and if that is the case you need to be sure the oil gallery is clear. If it is pressure fed then that could explain the failure if there is something blocking the gallery.
The only engine I have with the sump off it is deeply buried in the pile of Krap under the bench.

Thank you, Rick. I'll take pictures tomorrow evening