Yesterday I wnnt to the Gatton Swap Meet and the dear old K wasn't running very well at low revs.
It was hard to start the day before and I put it down to not having been ridden or started for near 8 weeks.
It started fine yesterday and ran fine till I refueled about 10Ks from home and then when leaving the servo it started to run on 2 cylinders, I gave it a bit of a rev and clutched it down the road and as long as I kept it above 3200 it was OK.
On the highwat it was fine ran on all 4,didn't get hot or use heaps of fuel so I kept going and went to the swap meet.
Today I starts investigating and it is running on 3 cyl with #2 the odd one so I think fuel and injector. Pull all the plastic of and remove fuel rail and clean all the injectors but none were really blocked but #2 didnt have a good spray patern but not bad enough to cause big problems.
I removed the plugs and #2 was clean and the others black sooty from idling. so I thinks #2 not firing but why is #3 firing if #2 isn't.
Maybe leads or coil so I check them and they show all leads at 5.9meg and coils around 13meg so thats OK and then sitting there and wondering I pick up the #2 plug and measure the resistance, it's 11.6 ohms and the others are .3 ohms which on my meter is actually zero so I measure the #2 again and try scratching for clean metal and 11.5 was the best reading.
Thats as far as I have got so far as my old aching bones said quit now you silly old bugger or you will pay so I came inside and had some food and coffee and sat here to see what was happening in the K world and write this odd story so far. Will have to wait till tomorrow as where I live even the auto shop is closed Sunday. ( the thinking being horses and buggys dont need spark plugs so they dont open on Sunday).

So far I am thinking maybe a weak spark combined with a bad plug but suggestions from anyone will be considered.

Sounds like it is only the lead had same problem on my hardley changed lead all good at idle so out for a ride suddenly bike starts breaking down back home I go check lead still fine ,checked coil to much resistance .Let it cool resistance now within spec , warmed it up back to break down so replaced coil now no problem
Now as the mighty K has 2 plugs off each coil with wasted spark might pay to check them as well

cheers Tony

swap out the plug rick sounds dodgy to me ....probably a manufacturing issue ...

you do mean "k" not "meg" for lead resistances huh ?

your plugs are the nonresistive type ? ....wonder if durring the manufacture there has been a slight resistive gap formed ...or its arcing along the insulator on the centre electrode before it gets to the tip ?

wasted spark systems are a pain to diagnose , with verry different things that happen ...

if you have resistive leads you do not need resistive plugs at all ...in fact resistive plugs with resistive leads makes the engine woefully bad at lower revs .......

10 cents from up north

i think i have a lead issue at the moment also ..getting some strange vibs at about 3 6k on the road ..i recon its a lead going bad .. or connection to coil endcap

Yeah it is K and not Meg DOH I will put new plugs in but the shop here is closed like everything else in Stanthorpe on a Sunday

i usually keep my last set of plugs ...till i get some new ones ...just for that reason . chin up rick ...btw what are you using ?

NGK D7EA

Check fuel filter and tank for water - you may have got a bad fill up. Saw that on a R1150GS once, same symptoms as you describe.

I was thinking I should check that not half an hour ago. It was sitting for 8-9 weeks after my latest break and could quite easily have got some condensation in the tank. Its dark here now and the scary things are out in the dark and besides I too lazy to go out to the man cave so I'll check that in the morning.

I had very similar symptons on my 91 16v earlier in the year. Amongst the solutions offered was to disconnect and reconnect the connections to the "computers" under the seat. This cured the problem and it hasn't returned in the ten thousand miles since. I'm sure someone with more technical knowledge will explain what it was.

Yeah I'll keep that in mind but just one thing at a time so I will know what cured it.

Rick G wrote:NGK D7EA

Bmw prescribe resistor spark plugs for the 4V models, which got other coils..............
I`ll guess it`s not just by coincidence.

I have to give it a compression test as I think I have bigger problems than spark plugs.

Cheer up, probably only a trifle causing it....but often they hides well.

The compression is good 160 psi on each cylinder but what led me to look at that was I opened the oil fill plug and the engine continued to run rough and no difference but there was a very distinct pulsing of air from the hole as if the compression was escaping into the crankcase, but apparently not so I will now remove all the TBs etc and have a very good look for leaks (and other vegetables) around anything that joins to anything else.
A leak is what I suspected at first.
Oh well back to the salt mine.

i think your chasing red herrings there rick .....the clue is a clean spark plug ....even of there were leaks it would be still firing and some carbon everywhere .

on what you said first, about the alternate plug firing ok, this is consistent with a short in the no2 plug ....it will still let number 3 fire ok . you sure you dont have a crack in the ceramic anywhere ? alternativly if water did get in number 2 (i have seen that clean up plugs too ) , it could have splatered a conduction path along the nose projection to the outer circumference

10 cents ...beats pulling those tbs off once again and for 4 bucks worth a try with a new plug

I have tried with a new plug and it was same ol game. I am going to try a new plug lead tomorrow but they all measure right.
When I remove the oil fill plug there is no difference in idle but when I remove the TB rubber bungs it gains revs on all but #2 and there is no difference. I have sprayed carb cleaner all over but cant make it change at idle and that says to me no leaks but then nothing is making much sense with it at the moment.

dont the 1100 s have a vacume line at the back of the throttle bodies ? that joins up with all that mess up to the airbox or something ...could you have a crack in there as well ?

yep change the lead ..first

move the spark plug leads over on the coils and see if the issue moves?

good thought rene

Watching it run in the dark can be helpful if you think you may have HT tracking problems.

One of the great things about this sort of exercise is you wind up fixing problems you never knew you had.

charlie99 wrote:dont the 1100 s have a vacume line at the back of the throttle bodies ? that joins up with all that mess up to the airbox or something ...could you have a crack in there as well ?

yep change the lead ..first

All the lines is why I may have to take the TBs of they are near impossible to see without removing the unit.

Could be easier removing the airfilter housing?

I just really didn't want to have to pull it apart this week because of the Bingara meeting next weekend.
I have a spare set of coils and leads they came with the 1100 engine I bought for the K1100GS. I been busy catching up after the saga with my arm and now this. I think my signature line is very appropiate at the moment. AAAArrrrrrrgggggggggggg!

Hang in there Rick.

Do you have a short from the coil plug sockets to bell housing. This was causing me some grief. Only found it due to arcing scars on the housing behind coils. (my 2cents worth)

yep good advice alby ,,that was a tricky one too

I have just been out for a ride and all is fine after replacing the plugs with NGK DR7EA but I really wouldn't expect that change to fix the problem. The whole system will work to optimum with the corect plugs but that alone and the resistor being the difference I don't reckon that it would be the real problem.
I did change the #2 lead but now changed back to the original and all is still OK.
Before I put the new plugs in I had swaped the plugs about and still #2 was missing.
I would say that whatever ailed it has been inadvertently fixed or the dirty little bugger is just waiting for me to get past Inverell on Saturday before it resurfaces. I will put it down to one of lifes mysteries and continue on.
However I did find a small leak in the multitude of rubber hoses that inhabit the area behind the TBs but it can wait.

Rick, take an axe with you on Saturday. My dear old dad used to put an axe near the chook yard if they were misbehaving....and it worked. It was one of life's mysteries.

true indeed stan !

K-1100GS ??? Stuff really does spin the other way in the Southern Hemisphere. Ok, you have to show us some photos of this beast.

Themason wrote:K-1100GS ??? Stuff really does spin the other way in the Southern Hemisphere. Ok, you have to show us some photos of this beast.

When I get it built, at the moment I am collecting parts for it and am trying to get a spare ten minutes to start on the restoration of my much loved Z1300 Kawasaki Big Six.
I am not one to have resto threads but like to show the finished article.

P.S. I do have upsidedown front forks for it.

Just an update to this thread.
I knew that I had not found the problem when I put the thing back together and during the ride through the flooded world on the weekend the thing (K1100) started its stupid tricks again.
So once again its in a great big heap of parts on the floor of my workshop and after microscopic examination of each and every piece I have taken off/apart my microscope is covered in grease. Sorry I just cant help myself at times. Most of the K100/75 riders here won't ever get the problem as it can only happen to a K1000/1100 16v. There is what is called an ignition amplifier bolted to the battery cradle and the battery cradle is earthed by a small 7.5 amp wire to the one of the two bolts that prevent the starter motor falling out onto the ground.
When I started to investigate I decided to install the 60amp alternator because I would have most of the bits out that have to be removed to do the job and upon removing the battery tray I found the earth wire was crushed under a nut and washer and had overheated then cooked (haven figured out why but I dont suspect that it is a fault causing it). I can't blame anybody except myself for the mistake as much as I would like to blame the idiot we have here that masquerades as a state premier.
The reason the wire was overheated I am not 100% sure but I think that I underestimated the size of conductor required when I made a new earth wire at the time of restoration of the thing. The original was broken away from the terminal and I dont recall that it was any heavier than the replacement.
Can anyone tell me for sure how much current the coils would take. They are a .5 ohm primary but with ignition systems you cant just say divide by 12 to get the current because its intermittent and the coils fire at different times and are not always energized. I would have thought that a 7.5 amp wire would have done the job but apparently not.
Enough ramblings for now and I will give myself a darned good thrashing John Cleese style.

that is kinda weird

is the new higher current altenator in and running before this ?

you did upgrade the earth to the battery as well huh ?

the only other thing i can think of is the starter having a bit of resistance to earth .. funny things happen if that was the case .

maybe a good sized cable from one of the altenator mounts ...via one of the starter earth bolts then to battery ?

Just 10mins ago put the 60amp in so have not even run it. The full length of the wire had melted the insulation and the copper strands have broken. I have put a 15 amp wire in so will find out now, or maybe all the smoke got out.

Well a futher update on this strange problem. It all resurfaced on the flooded world weekend in January and I have been chasing my tail for months with it.
In desperation I changed things one at a time, first the ignition amplifier with no success then the plugs for the X times then leads then I thought the cruise control may be the problem because its pickup is from the 2/3 coil but no it's not that.
Next in line was the coils so I removed them and tested them and both read as if perfect, so I compared them with my spare set and they came up within 1% on all readings so I installed the spare set anyway and took it for a ride with zip ties and wire holding the various fairing bits so they didn't flap and it was ok, but this is not the first time that it has crawled back into its hole to wait for a more inconvenient time to re-emerge. I put all the plastic back and went for a long ride 140km and still ok.
Still being a suspicious type I took the coils to a friend who is an auto electrician and used his coil testing gizzmo and the old coils are 100% OK. In curuiosity I put them back on the heap and it ran like a dog so back went the spare set and all is OK again.
I now don't really know why the coils are cactus but it is at the moment running well for the Narrandera trip. I wont claim victory yet as I could end up having a feed of crow but I think I finally got rid of the problem even if I didn't really find the fault with the coils.
So I just might have a bottle or 2 of merlot toninght to celebrate.
The bike does feel better to ride and for something to think on the very loud induction roar that it had at full throttle in the higher gears is almost gone. Can anybody explain that because it just doesn't make sense to me.
So now I will install my harman chip when I get back from Narrandera.

possible shorted turns rick ....it does happen time to time ...

usually casued by a high resistance plug lead some where (which lets the voltage build extrodinarily )

you wouldnt be able to measure it unless you put an lcr meter on it and compare with a good one or put it on one of those high voltage multi cylinder cro thingys i think they call them an analiser ...havent seen one for ages ...since all these new efi self diagnosing computers got fitted to mainstream cars .

the prognosis for shorted turns is that it looks ok on the spark ...but verry little grunt ...that is when presures and fuel build under load but cant fire properly ...but ok at light and lean loads ...almost like a compression leak when hot , or bad points in an old kettering system . kinda like not enough dwell .

I dont understand how they can be 100% in the shop and trouble at home? Mine are connected with spade connectors to the wiring on the 75 How are yours connected?? sussing out an anomally like bad connectors to the primaries at home doesnt stack up if the next set of coils happens to work fine. Keith

K75cster wrote:I dont understand how they can be 100% in the shop and trouble at home? Mine are connected with spade connectors to the wiring on the 75 How are yours connected?? sussing out an anomally like bad connectors to the primaries at home doesnt stack up if the next set of coils happens to work fine. Keith

That makes 2 of us. I spent about 3 hours with the auto elect on friday and we just cant fault either coil. we did all sorts of dastardly things to them trying to get a fault but both come up perfect but put it back on the bike and it's rubbish. If I swap the coils it is 1 & 4 that play up so it is the coil itself. I am now at the stage that I don't really care what it is just that it's now running properly.
I just hope I have fixed it as I have fiddled about before with coild and ignition amp and it comes good then 100 or 200 k down the road it starts to go sour.
When it first started I immediately picked it for a spark problem but I couldnt find a problem anywhere and I still can't find what is actually wrong.
It rund fine on the highway and even round town so long as I dont load it at low revs and when it drops the cylinders it comes back right on 3200 rpm and this is why I am not 100% sure it's fixed

Well I guess extra riding is in order to ensure you are confident for the narrandarah trip and a reasonable way to confirm that the wiring to coils 2 & 3 are all good. Seeing as the things to play up are power to the coil timing to the coil and the coil, if it runs fine this week then its becoming self evident on the old coils behalf.

I'm not sure if this applies to your model but.......
I fought a very similar sounding problem for MONTHS. It turned out to be the coils, as you have described.
My 1985rs was delivered with "all black" coils as the ones I remember from your pics.
At some point, BMW made a production change to coils that have "Orange colored towers". There are 2 different kinds of those as well. One kind fits 2V engines and one kind fits 4V engines. They are not interchangeable.
See if you can get a good used set of Orange Tower Coils. You will probably be all good.
Just sayin'..........there was something wrong with the design of the black coils. They worked well when new, but just barely. Given any number of deteriorating conditions from age and they don't make it any more.

Mine is a K1100LT with the correct coils which are different again to any the K100 8Vs had. Whats is annoying me most is that I haven't found a fault that is definitave so I am sort of waiting for it to start it's tricks again as it has in the past. I do believe that it is fixed but I would have liked to have the proof.

Electrical gremlins are always tough and I feel for you. If electrical were simple, predictable and straight forward, I expect this forum would only see about 10% of the posts.
Basic electrical knowledge classes are very beneficial with hands on learning.
My biggest revelation in life came when a manager in my fleet department showed me how to do a "voltage drop test" end to end across any given circuit with a voltmeter identifying excessive resistance in a circuit. Much easier than going hunting all over with an OHM meter. Basically, you count the approx. number of connection points from one end of that circuit to the other. Assume that each connection in the line will have enough resistance to cause a 0.10 volt drop. If there's 10 connections end to end and the test shows much more than 1 volt when the circuit is loaded, there's an issue.
I wish I had all the time & words to completely describe this in detail, but hopefully you get the idea and will read up on it.

I have 2 trade qualifications one being an electronics tech, mainly in communications and the other a fitter which I did as an adult apprenticeship with a big marine engineering company.
I wouldn't say I am very up to date with the cutting edge of the electronics but have a very good grounding in the basics of all of it which is something the new techs don't get nowdays.
Spent many years working around the bike shops as well as Honda Australia and Suzuki. I still do bike repairs at home but usually now for just a select bunch of K riders and a few airheads.

Sorry,
I didn't mean to infer that anyone was not educated, only trying to demonstrate a basic principle that was amazing to me when I learned it in hopes that someone else would be able to benefit.
No offense I hope. Sorry if I was short sighted

It would be interesting if you could find someone elses identical model to install your suspect coils on for a test.
If they act up then, you could fault something that was overlooked in the test procedure. If they don't, you're back to looking for some other unfound variable about your particular machine.

ibjman wrote:Sorry,
I didn't mean to infer that anyone was not educated, only trying to demonstrate a basic principle that was amazing to me when I learned it in hopes that someone else would be able to benefit.
No offense I hope. Sorry if I was short sighted

no offence taken at all. Its what I like about this forum is that most if not all are willing to throw ideas around and we all benifit from that.
I have always said that it has been a wasted day if when you go to bed you realize that you haven't learned anything new and I often learn more than one each day here.
It has been something that has anoyed me all my life that mechanics and other fixit trades don't listen properly to what the customer is trying to tell them and form a preconcieved idea of what the problem is after the first few words. With bikes and cars the owners have a very close relationship with their vehicle and they know when something just isnt quite right and often find it difficult to put it into words and even more difficult for the mechanic to interperet the meaning.
Worst of all is the mechanics that keep every thing a secret like the fate of the nation depended on it.

i'm a maintenence engineer (telecomms) by trade, and the phrase ' cleared during localisation' is an acceptable clear for a fault report. I'ts one of those things that happens.

you may have it sorted by now, my experience is plugs can fail randomly. I recently had a merc displaying cracked disi cap symptoms, plug only 20000km, bosh. apparently theyre not to good ex Sth America, fitted NGKs and it ran perfectly for low investment, surprised me as I had cleaned the old plugs up but they were past their useby kms. My K100s a little rough at just off the idle, I'll start at the plugs and work up.
mawhera

Rick